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Institute for Radiological Protection and Nuclear Safety. I can see though that science has problems taking on creationists because of the perceived risk of lending credibility to their ideas. C14 has a half life of years and is only good to date objects to 50, years or so. Older carbon dating techniques directly detected decays of C14 atoms. I won't be able to do so in the near term -- my wife and kids want me to stop dorking with the internet and go out to eat. Alkali and acid washes can be used to remove humic acid and carbonate contamination, but care has to be taken to avoid removing the part of the sample that contains the carbon to be tested.

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Nearby radioactive material could trigger mweb dating support the same C14 production process from nitrogen as occurs in the upper atmosphere, albeit at a much reduced rate.

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Another possible avenue is C13, which has a small but non-zero neutron absorption cross section. By either mechanism, this is essentially internal contamination. All this means is that measured dates older than some oldest reliable date are just that -- to old to date reliably.

I might be able to see if I can come up with some references. I won't be able to do so in the near term -- my wife and kids want me to stop dorking with the internet and go out to eat. In order to take back our site, we have taken the step of removing all the scripts on our site. We will restore static content as quickly as possible.

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Note: I think that should be I know I visited talkorigins. I eventually managed to find an excellent article see the top of this post using pandasthumb.


That led me to this non-technical article, and from there followed a link to the asa3. Has Google itself been hacked? Edited December 30, by D H multiple post merged I think the news item on their front page refers to a much older event. What happened, from what I recall, is that someone hacked TalkOrigins and managed to get the site to display hidden spam links at the bottom of pages, making Google think it was a spam site and thus getting it removed from Google.

They fixed that issue a while ago. PZ Myers says they've had some Thanks for your responses and the links to various sources.

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  • Impact Soon after the publication of Libby's paper in Science, universities around the world began establishing radiocarbon-dating laboratories, and by the end of the s there were more than 20 active 14 C research laboratories.

I am working my way through Kirk Bertsche's 9 page essay on the subject. Thanks DH for this link. This article does a good job at explaining the technical complexities of measuring the very small amounts of C14 present in these ancient samples and why non-zero amounts are measured. I'm a complete non-expert in this field of radiometric dating, but it strikes me reading this how contamination by modern carbon introduced during sample preparation seems to be a severe issue.

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I'm wonder whether they've extracted samples under an inert atmosphere and then used laser ablation to ionize samples in their mass spectrometers? I'm probably teaching grandmother to suck eggs, as the old saying goes. Getting back to my OP - I feel that some definitive work needs to be done in this area. It's easy to see that the sceptical creationist is simply going to see the scientific response as making excuses for the data instead of holding up some hard data that either explains or explodes the anomaly.

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Another thing I've heard from creationists is that fossils made by soaking samples in tar pits appear to be extremely old. Of course, the problem is that this process results in contamination with old carbon, making the sample appear older. In the case of old samples with almost no C, even the tiniest bit of contamination would make the sample appear far younger.

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Always remember that C dating is not a magical process; it is a measure of C and the age interpretation depends on a few assumptions. Science has several very reasonable explanations for levels of modern carbon in very old samples. Although this satisfies the scientist, who for all sorts of other reasons quite reasonably assumes that these samples are truly old, it leaves enormous scope for the creationists to reinforce their followers' faith that the earth is young. I still feel that some definitive experiments in this area would be useful to test the various rational explanations for the c14 anomaly.

I can see though that science has problems taking on creationists because of the perceived risk of lending credibility to their ideas.

Bit of a dilemma there.

Also as soon as one creationist idea is exploded, they just move on to another area where uncertainty in the science offers them the opportunity to mislead. That begs the question that an anomaly even exists. What does exist are limits to the applicability of 14C dating techniques. There is no arguing with young earth creationists.

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They are immune to logic and evidence. Broadly speaking I agree with you. If you don't, such dismissive arguments as 'the extra C14 could be due to uranium decay' leave enough wriggle room uncertainty for the creationist to thrive in.

You're right though, I'm probably being naive in thnking they will be convinced.

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Even so, it is always good when creationists have been casting doubt in some area to be able to completely explode their reasoning. Edited January 15, by Griffon add a word I'm still looking for a reference, in a refereed scientific journal, confirming the finding of carbon14, in any amount, in diamonds or coal.

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I suspect, but haven't been able to confirm, that the reports of carbon 14 in these substances have been made up out of whole cloth by Young Earth Creationists, but I am loath to make this claim, absent evidence that reports of these findings haven't been published in any journals that aren't connected with such organizations as the Institute for Creation Science.

I further think that it is the fact that the claims are conscpicuously bogus that has accounted for their not having been responded to. After all, to my limited understanding, carbon 14 is associated with organic processes, and, right off the bat, I find myself wondering why it would be found in any allotrope of carbon, which is an inorganic element.

Can anyone out there either confirm or disconfirm my suspicions?